Chance and random composing tools

[QuiltSuns]

I would like to know if there are many of you guys using random generating tools to make your songs. I am not talking so much about techniques you may have invented yourself such as specific plugins like the "Random" in Ableton Live or the more sophisticated "Thesys" from Sugar Bytes http://www.sugar-bytes.com/content/products/Thesys/index.php?lang=en
What are you experiences?

[billygomberg]

I hacked/created a tool in both Max & Reaktor that does a randomized loop of timed values, based on seeding, length and position variables.  I don't find pure, constant randomization to be very musically interesting (S/H on a sticky filter notwithstanding), but I don't want to have to manually manage each step in a sequence of however many values.

I don't know much about what is available as a plugin for Live or otherwise.  what are you looking to do?

[QuiltSuns]

Hi Billy, thanks for the answer!

I am not looking to do anything in particular... Since I am new to the forum, I was trying to find out if there are many people here interested in chance as an ingredient in their productions and what tools or approaches they tend to use... you know, just trying to start a conversation about something interesting...

I agree with you that pure, really random results aren't very useful. My approach is that I create midi "generators" combining midi plugins in Ableton (my weapon of choice) so they produce a more or less controlled results (in terms of pitch and rhythm) that do not repeat themselves throughout time but are within a scope of tonality and rhythm wicht is useful and (or) interesting. In other words, something that surprises myself but don't freakout my ears!  You can hear what I am talking about at http://quiltsuns.blogspot.com/search/label/Generators

Do you work with Ableton too? I can send you some of my "generators" so you can see how they are built. They are quite simple actually. The fun is in the way you use them and mix them with other more conventional stuff...

[taylordeupree]

i use chance all the time in my composition and then spend an enormous amount of time editing that chance afterwards.

i use randomness/chance in a bunch of different ways, depending on what instrument i'm using:

- acoustic instruments: my latest favorite way. acoustic instruments, by nature, are random. let the beauty of their imperfections come through

- synth programming: i use a lot of subtle LFOs and random modulations when i program my hardware synths. modulating parameters for slight movements.

- software: Kyma is my main software manipulator. plenty of random algorithms in there...

[billygomberg]

- synth programming: i use a lot of subtle LFOs and random modulations when i program my hardware synths. modulating parameters for slight movements.

I will say that I get more into subtle randomness on my synths.  LFO and modulation routing can create beautiful motion and texture shifts.

I also get into the mod routing on the Shruti-1 and just jam on the knobs.   People can be random too!

[s_hamann]

Like Taylor, I tend to use random tools as a starting point, then edit the results to something seemingly not random. Especially noises and field recordings, where I work with whatever I'm able to capture.

I have a small modular synth, and one of the modules I have is the Zorlon Cannon, which creates series of pseudo-random gates. I use those a lot, especially as a clock source for fixed sequences so that it runs through the same eight notes, but at irregular intervals.

In terms of software, I use the probability functions on Replicant quite a lot. I also use the slice randomization on Liveslice a lot until I come across a sequence I like, then I fine tune it. I very rarely sequence MIDI, so don't use random MIDI tools much. I really like the randomizing and probability functions on the sequencer on the drumsynth plugin Tattoo, but I don't have much call to use it often given my preferred way of working.

[QuiltSuns]

Very interesting answers from you all guys.

I like the approach of Taylor, making field recordings and using acoustic instruments as source of surprises. It is the adventurous part of these kind of experiments I enjoy the most.

Just for argument's sake I wouldn't consider LFO random changes much of a random technique. You still can recognize the original sound and hear were it comes from (nothing against that of course!). May be my measure of how much interesting random techniques are depends on the level of (usable) surprise I get with them...

I use quite often Replicant as Steve does: I is very good for "seasoning" percussions and stuff...

I am quite intrigued about Taylor's Kyma... I have to learn more about it!

In my case I work a lot with midi random plugins. I get very different kind of nice results, not only with percussions and drums but specially with synths sounds making tonal and harmonic lines. The trick is to use chains of plugings to tame the randomness. I mean, something like Arpegiator+Random+Scale+Velocity+Note Length (working in Ableton as I said before).

If you layer several chains of these with different settings, you get ever-changing combination of notes inside the tonality you decide... sometimes the results a surprisingly expressive!

Does anyone worked with Sugar Bytes, Thesys. It does the same kind of things but is more powerful and... expensive ;-)

The Zorlon Cannon look impressive...

Billy spoke about Reaktor too. I think it is good tool with lots of noise generators and stuff available...

One of the craziest things I did lately was to put a mic inside my mouth and literally bite it while groaning and making noises, slice the results to a sampler, random play the notes and at the same time play with the start and loop values of every sample in real time (this was the fun part). The results had nothing  to do with the original material and sounded very... orchestral!!!

[oootini]

i've had some good results letting this run and run and then editing down the resultant midi melodies...

http://docs.monome.org/doku.php?id=app:parc

i think you could probably run it without a monome but you wouldn't have much control. you could definitely hack it to your taste though...

[oootini]

http://rwm.macba.cat/en/composingwithprocess_tag

these podcasts by mark fell are also pretty interesting and deal with composing music with process.

[QuiltSuns]

Thanks oOotini for the tips. I have a Launchpad, but since I am not in the hacking thing I guess I cannot use it without the monome... I'll check the podcast by Mark Fell.

Yesterday I was connecting a miniKorg with some parameters of the midi Generators in Ableton... I guess what I am trying to get is a way to control and change in realtime the results of the generative process so you can jam with yourself (playing along with a guitar, synth, etc.) but at the same time you have a sense of adventure, meaning, having fun!

[oootini]

Thanks oOotini for the tips. I have a Launchpad, but since I am not in the hacking thing I guess I cannot use it without the monome... I'll check the podcast by Mark Fell.

Yesterday I was connecting a miniKorg with some parameters of the midi Generators in Ableton... I guess what I am trying to get is a way to control and change in realtime the results of the generative process so you can jam with yourself (playing along with a guitar, synth, etc.) but at the same time you have a sense of adventure, meaning, having fun!

http://post.monome.org/comments.php?DiscussionID=6245 you can run monome apps on the launchpad...

[QuiltSuns]

Thank you oOotini, I'll try those!

[jórgos]

The trick is to use chains of plugings to tame the randomness. I mean, something like Arpegiator+Random+Scale+Velocity+Note Length (working in Ableton as I said before).

I use this technique too and I really like the result some times. I find great tool in Live the Follow Action. To be more specific I usually record a scale or a chord note by note and putting each note in a different Simpler instrument. Then I select the samples that I want to have this “randomness” and I open the Launch mode and there you can find the Follow Action and the Legato mode. I really like the result especially for melodic stuff.

acoustic instruments: my latest favorite way. acoustic instruments, by nature, are random. let the beauty of their imperfections come through

I really like to throw marbles on old instruments like acoustic guitar, violin or glockenspiels. When those marbles are hitting the strings or the wood of the instruments you can get some really nice random patterns.

[QuiltSuns]

Good idea the Legato mode thing.That way you can jump from the middle of one sample to the next one without waiting for it to finish, giving different results every time... Cool!
In the end you have always to "polish" the results in one way or another. There is when you take the creative decissions. It is like making a field recording in a factory or in the street and then spending hours choosing little pieces and deciding what o do with them...
On the other hand I think that today, with the excess of sitting hours in front of the computer it is much healthier to work with objects, recording noises, hitting things...  ;-)

[jórgos]

On the other hand I think that today, with the excess of sitting hours in front of the computer it is much healthier to work with objects, recording noises, hitting things...  ;-)

That's why i want to apply contact mics everywhere and to build a glass harmonica!