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Author Topic: CDs are dead (almost)  (Read 7471 times)

taylordeupree

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CDs are dead (almost)
« on: November 10, 2010, 10:13:19 am »
wether we like it or not... people just don't want CDs...

vinyl is still a specialist market.. cassettes are passing kitsch. legal download sales are on the rise, but not enough to cover the losses of CDs.

so, listeners want music for free... so what's an artist or label supposed to do?

special packages? books, boxes, etc? great.. beautiful, but really expensive....

CD-R? never taken as seriously....

just some ideas to get this going...

rené

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Re: CDs are dead (almost)
« Reply #1 on: November 10, 2010, 10:53:52 am »
(...) .. cassettes are passing kitsch. (...)

I did not think it is kitsch so far but can see the point clearly.
It is a revival of a dead format which smells like stupid hipster retro bullshit. Just like oversized nerd glasses. Still I like tapes.
:)
Don't mean to hijack this, maybe I should post my answer in the "self promo" thread but highly related to this: I just received the first tape I did with Michelle (two people in a room) as we got tired of looking for a label (still a cd will be out early next year, if all works fine, different songs). Why did we chose tape? It is an edition of 100. Tape is nicer than cd-rs. The point is that people still like "objects" but cd are "so 90s" and vinyl is damnsexy. Of course everyone who asks can have 320 kbps mp3s. That being said, I'd prefer a 12k cd over a tape anyway because 12k cd covers always look really good.

And, Taylor, what are your vinyl future plans?
 

taylordeupree

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Re: CDs are dead (almost)
« Reply #2 on: November 10, 2010, 11:06:37 am »
sorry for the tape comment, rene! :) i mean, to me, cassettes seem like such an attempt to find *something* that's not a CD.. but, it has no benefits to me.. vinyl is bigger, looks beautiful and sounds great.. cassettes have less artwork and often sound pretty bad.. plus, not many people have cassette decks anymore.

i commend the attempt to find "new" formats, but it strikes me as faddish.

as for vinyl... 12"s are really difficult.. it costs $11 just to ship one 12" to a customer in europe.. so the prices have to be really high.... as long as people are willing to pay $20 for a 12", it's viable... but it's why i like the 7" format better.. there's something more cozy about it, and it's cheaper to ship and easier to handle.

i think, however, that 12k will continue to release vinyl.. in both 12" and 7".. it's just hard to do vinyl and CDs and to make MORE product when there are less sales.

maybe i make the decision to do no more CDs.. and just vinyl/download

who knows..

desirepathrecs

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Re: CDs are dead (almost)
« Reply #3 on: November 10, 2010, 11:17:49 am »
taylor, from my perspective your model works fine, as it has for some time now. what would a drastic shift do for 12k, which has spent so many years presenting music as an ideal cd artifact?
when i started my label, i began with the intention of never releasing cds and simply focusing on vinyl. did this, or should it have, sealed my fate? does a label have some sort of obligation to continue to present material in the way it always has? i never liked the model of releasing an album on both cd and vinyl. maybe depending on the album/context/aesthetic value of the artwork, one medium should be the focus.

mbleming

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Re: CDs are dead (almost)
« Reply #4 on: November 10, 2010, 11:34:15 am »
Up until about a month and a half ago, I was COMPLETELY tied to physical formats (tapes, vinyl, cds) and I just couldn't understand people who downloaded all their music (whether they paid for it or not). Admittedly, a large part of the reason for this is that I've sunk a good chunk of change into a quality stereo system and speakers...I just can not fathom playing compressed mp3s through my cherished tube amp (even if I'd be hard pressed to hear a difference!) I've also always enjoyed having an OBJECT to hold and stare at as I listened...even if it was just a cassette inlay or cd case...for whatever reason I like to have a physical object. This changed recently though after taking a shot at incorporating a squeezebox touch into my stereo system...the convenience of the whole thing has completely changed my mind on buying digital music. I still have ZERO interest in mp3 for the reason I mentioned above, but I've recently been buying music from Boomkat in FLAC format. The sound quality is absolutely in line with, if not better than my reference cd player and the convenience and ease of buying flac files at 3am has me seriously considering going digital as my primary listening source. I'm still buying cds, tapes and vinyl primarily, as many labels have yet to offer files in WAV for flac format. Editions Mego and Raster both provide Boomkat with flac format files, and it's been awesome not having to pay shipping and wait for the physical items to arrive via mail. I've been eagerly awaiting for the time when 12K offers their music in an uncompressed format! I  missed the boat on the Line Mark Fell record and stare at it on itunes regularly, though I can't pull the trigger on those mp3s!
On a related note, don't even get me started on people who want their music for free...truly mind boggling. I really like what Warp has done recently by offering really nice vinyl packages that include an option to download mp3, WAV or flac format files...this is really the best of all possible scenarios for me...

stanislav vdovin

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Re: CDs are dead (almost)
« Reply #5 on: November 10, 2010, 11:54:10 am »
nothing is dead i think.. it would be better to ask what kind of music do listeners want today. if they like it enough and moreover appreciate artist's position concerning sharing they will support. i sell music after shows, and people don't care if it's cdr or cd or flashcard.. they prefer hard copy anyway.

rupske

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Re: CDs are dead (almost)
« Reply #6 on: November 10, 2010, 12:01:16 pm »
taylor, from my perspective your model works fine, as it has for some time now. what would a drastic shift do for 12k, which has spent so many years presenting music as an ideal cd artifact?
when i started my label, i began with the intention of never releasing cds and simply focusing on vinyl. did this, or should it have, sealed my fate? does a label have some sort of obligation to continue to present material in the way it always has? i never liked the model of releasing an album on both cd and vinyl. maybe depending on the album/context/aesthetic value of the artwork, one medium should be the focus.
just so you know, i really, really wanted to have solo andata-ritual on CD (because solo andata-solo andata was one of my favorite albums of last year and also the nice snippets posted online)  :'( but I'll buy the digital version though.

Perhaps it is because I am so young (21y) but I don't really see the point of vinyl. Sure, it looks pretty nice, and supposedly the sound quality is a bit higher. But who can hear that? When most people can't even hear the difference between flac and 320 kbps (at least, I don't hear it). I can't really compare the sound quality of the small amount of vinyl that I do own, because my record player is unfortunately crappy. (I have richard skelton-landings waiting for me when I finally buy a decent player though)
I don't want to start a boring vinyl vs. cd debate, but I have the impression that most people who have only started buying music in the last few years, don't buy vinyl unless they:
a. do it out of tradition/nostalgia (e.g. people who "spin records" at parties)
b. are people who like to collect objects, and treat these objects in the same way that you would treat a poster/t-shirt/whatever of your favorite act.
so to me vinyl seems largely a very unpractical and bulky way to carry information

I also would like to mention that I don't mean to offend with this opinion. Perhaps I just don't know better :-[

Anyway, cd is my preferred format to buy physical copies, but 95% of the music I listen to is via ipod/PC in digital format, and I don't really see it changing in the future. The main reason I buy CD's is to support the artist behind it, and when I buy an album I just listen to the album rip via pc/ipod. It's just more convenient.

Another relevant note: most people I know barely buy music (CD;mp3 or vinyl) at all. I think people of "my generation" ( ;) ) somehow have the idea that there is no reason to pay for music, films etc. (for example, look at albums which have 1000 copies or so sold and 40,000 unique listeners on last.fm)

although I must admit that illegal internet music downloading is not totally negative. It allows the pirate to discover a previously unaccessible amount of music. The result of this is that people will discover music they would not have discovered without illegal downloads (e.g. if they are on a budget). I must also plead guilty to downloading many albums routinely, and not feel guilty about it at all. I usually buy everything that is quality afterwards. and I hate the feeling of buying an album and then being really disappointed...

Should I feel bad about this? Because I am willing to listen to everyone's input

pascal savy

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Re: CDs are dead (almost)
« Reply #7 on: November 10, 2010, 12:36:46 pm »
I think it's interesting to hear different points of view depending on age and tradition. When I first started to listen music, cds didn't exist and vinyl was the obvious format. So I guess i still play them out of tradition. Nevertheless, vinyl appeal to very different people now and I think its 'success' is not only due to the sound and object-ness but also because it's the least abstract way of playing music at home. Where downloads are kind of virtual, the listener has an 'experience' by dusting off the vinyl, putting the record on the turnable, listening to the crackles of the needle, etc etc. Their is a unique physicality involved.
I remember somebody I knew in the 80's who would buy vinyl and would record them straightaway onto reel to reel tape. I figure out that for this person listening to music was a very involved act...
Regarding cds I buy them mainly to support artists and labels and I try to avoid itunes and such like the take a huge chunk of money out of the sales. But I think globally people will buy whatever is more practical ie downloads or stream services. As mention above most people don't hear the difference between compressed and uncompressed and anyway listen to their music on poor quality earbuds and/or in their car. No need for cds really.

desirepathrecs

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Re: CDs are dead (almost)
« Reply #8 on: November 10, 2010, 12:47:11 pm »
rupske, you have to understand that, especially with this kind of music, labels are always at the brink of collapsing. every time someone illegally downloads an album, it's a push one step closer to the edge of the cliff. with a new label, such in mine, we're starting up on the edge of the cliff. i think you're aware of the implications, it's just that you choose not to acknowledge it. illegally downloading albums is just too easy; everything is there for the taking. the websites that offer a free download while urging you to buy the LP (yes, pray god live, take the album down please) are not helping the matter by making listeners aware, i think they're just cheapening the product and making it disposable.

tokafi

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Re: CDs are dead (almost)
« Reply #9 on: November 10, 2010, 01:20:12 pm »
As to your question of what a label should do, Taylor, from my perspective it's not so much a question of format - even though that definitely is an important issue as well. From my personal experience, what no longer works is to operate exclusively via mailorders and other distributors. I think a label, just like artists these days, also needs to take its music on the road as much as they can. I don't believe in this myth of "live will save music" hyped by trendy journalists, but I do know that a lot of artists are selling vast quantities of records after their performances - up to 10-12 vinyls plus merchandising on just one night. It is the combination of traditional promotion (press, ads) with live work and social media that seems to be the key. How on earth a single person is supposed to do all that, I have no clue - and, just as in journalism, I'm pretty sure it takes away a lot of the pleasure and satisfaction of this job...

taylordeupree

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Re: CDs are dead (almost)
« Reply #10 on: November 10, 2010, 01:52:08 pm »
lots of great thoughts here everyone...


Perhaps it is because I am so young (21y) but I don't really see the point of vinyl. Sure, it looks pretty nice, and supposedly the sound quality is a bit higher. But who can hear that? When most people can't even hear the difference between flac and 320 kbps (at least, I don't hear it). I can't really compare the sound quality of the small amount of vinyl that I do own, because my record player is unfortunately crappy. (I have richard skelton-landings waiting for me when I finally buy a decent player though)

yes, this is all very valid.. it's still a specialist market.. for those who love the format. it's not convenient at all and that's why it remains a niche format.. and will likely not rise again to its old levels or the levels of CD sales.


Another relevant note: most people I know barely buy music (CD;mp3 or vinyl) at all. I think people of "my generation" ( ;) ) somehow have the idea that there is no reason to pay for music, films etc. (for example, look at albums which have 1000 copies or so sold and 40,000 unique listeners on last.fm)


yes, this is a very scary fact.. that an entire generation is being raised to think that music (and other forms of media) should be free and disposable. you guys are the future, and that's precisely why we're having this conversion. you (i mean you in the large sense) have spoken.. and demanded that music be free. it is now our responsibility as artists and labels to come up with a working model that can sustain that.


Should I feel bad about this? Because I am willing to listen to everyone's input

while i agree that a lot of free (illegal) music out there allows people to discover artists they might not have ever heard of before... but, the fact remains, CD and digital sales are not making up for this loss from illegal file sharing. so as much as people say they want to support the artists or are using illegal file sharing as a way to discover new artists, they simply aren't supporting them.

i've said it before in this forum... and other places.. but i like to put it like this...

go into work tomorrow and tell your boss you'll work for free. do it. if you won't do that, then you're a hypocrite for stealing other people's work. period. artists and labels work very hard to make good music, just as people work very hard at their jobs doing whatever it is that they do. professional artists dont want to work for free just as professional lawyers, accountants, builders, doctors, salesmen, etc want to work for free.

(again, to Rupske, i'm not attacking YOU specificially, just the damage done by file sharing).

maybe we can make a pro/con list of what happens when an artist's work get stolen:

pros:
you discover more music
maybe an artist's live shows are more attended by a larger number of people going to the shows.

cons:
you're stealing an artist's intellectual property
you're taking money away from that artist to help them create more work
which in turn supports music hardware and software developers, studios, etc
music becomes disposable
labels get hurt and will have to make compromises or shut down
labels will no longer be able to support/promote artists


however, the fact is, music IS being stolen, it will continue to be stolen and, frankly, there's nothing an artist or label can do about it except stop making music. so.. it becomes our job to find ways to stay afloat while the work gets stolen..

and, because this is the way things are now, we WILL find a way around this.. whether it's something as sad as cheaper packaging, lack of physical media (ie: production costs)... or, something wonderful and clever.. which is where i hope all of this ends up. there IS a solution out there.. no one has found it yet, but there is a happy medium to keep the file sharers and the supporters happy while giving the artists a reason to make music and labels a reason to curate something beautiful.

too many thoughts in my head.. onto more threads!

taylor

taylordeupree

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Re: CDs are dead (almost)
« Reply #11 on: November 10, 2010, 02:06:25 pm »
yes, live performance is one of the areas that i think could benefit from the new models of free music... but, personally, that doesn't appeal to me because i'm more interested in studio recording.. and don't have as much time to perform live as i could.. what with a family and running the label.

but, yes, if live performance becomes the new way to support yourself as an artist then that's my problem :)

not that i don't love to play live, but it would take a lot of live performances to cover the costs of running 12k..

As to your question of what a label should do, Taylor, from my perspective it's not so much a question of format - even though that definitely is an important issue as well. From my personal experience, what no longer works is to operate exclusively via mailorders and other distributors. I think a label, just like artists these days, also needs to take its music on the road as much as they can. I don't believe in this myth of "live will save music" hyped by trendy journalists, but I do know that a lot of artists are selling vast quantities of records after their performances - up to 10-12 vinyls plus merchandising on just one night. It is the combination of traditional promotion (press, ads) with live work and social media that seems to be the key. How on earth a single person is supposed to do all that, I have no clue - and, just as in journalism, I'm pretty sure it takes away a lot of the pleasure and satisfaction of this job...

taylordeupree

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Re: CDs are dead (almost)
« Reply #12 on: November 10, 2010, 02:09:11 pm »
yeah.. obviously, i already got started :) for better or for worse..

but, yes, this is something 12k will be doing in the very near future: instant downloads with the purchase of every CD. it will satisfy the desire to have the music NOW and then in a few days you'll get the CD/object/package. best of both worlds.

we're working on that on the website and hope to be able to roll it out at the beginning of the year.

On a related note, don't even get me started on people who want their music for free...truly mind boggling. I really like what Warp has done recently by offering really nice vinyl packages that include an option to download mp3, WAV or flac format files...this is really the best of all possible scenarios for me...

taylordeupree

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Re: CDs are dead (almost)
« Reply #13 on: November 10, 2010, 02:15:12 pm »
taylor, from my perspective your model works fine, as it has for some time now. what would a drastic shift do for 12k, which has spent so many years presenting music as an ideal cd artifact?

yes, despite the fall in CD sales, the 12k model is working fine.. for the time being... editions and pressings will be smaller.. that's the only immediate change...

but, 12k has to adapt to meet the new challenges.. if CDs disappear entirely, then so be it, 12k will adapt to whatever the consumers and artists want.

when i started my label, i began with the intention of never releasing cds and simply focusing on vinyl. did this, or should it have, sealed my fate? does a label have some sort of obligation to continue to present material in the way it always has? i never liked the model of releasing an album on both cd and vinyl. maybe depending on the album/context/aesthetic value of the artwork, one medium should be the focus.


it's definitely important to have boundaries, but to also constantly change.. if you get stuck in "the old ways" you will die out.. which is why i've vowed to adapt...

when i started 12k i said i would never work with traditional distributors... well, it only took me about a year or two to discover the value of distributors.. so i changed..

i think setting yourself as a label that only does vinyl and downloads is totally fine, as long as it continues to support itself. you will be isolating yourself from a few people who don't want vinyl or download.. but, ultimately, the music will speak/sell for itself.. and, you're isolating yourself from most of the world anyway by releasing this kind of music that we all care about :)

i think it's a fine model, as long as its sustainable. which, given the current state of CDs, it probably is. vinyl is just harder because production costs are equal to or greater than CDs, and selling price is a lot less. in fact, 12k loses money on every record (vinyl) i sell. i release them out of love for the object and project and hope that digital sales make up for the money loss on the vinyl.

Le Berger

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Re: CDs are dead (almost)
« Reply #14 on: November 10, 2010, 03:24:32 pm »
[...] don't even get me started on people who want their music for free...truly mind boggling.

Maybe it is, fact remains that it is the general trend. We could speculate endlessly as to who and what promotes (or promoted) said trend, but I do not believe it would in any way put a damper on it, much less reverse it even if correctives where applied globally and cooperatively to try and supress it. It's one of those things you're better off adapting to rather than fight against.

I personally don't think CD is dead, or dying, it's still the premium medium for music. That is, for those who still want to purchase their music and own an artifact to go along with it. The use of the term artifact isn't random, because the physical support for music and all the other artwork that accompanies it is very secondary to most, fast becoming obsolete. Meanwhile some labels or bands are trying to offer a more complete experience through physical supports and greater CD packaging, the effects on sales and general interest in the product is definitely mitigated at best, and extremely costly. (Thus leading to greater financial risks for the label or promoter)

It looks grim... but the medium isn't dying, it's just transforming from a primary revenue source into a very marginal one. So, to answer the original query, if a label is there to promote and sell physical supports for music, is it still relevant? In those terms, less and less so.. or you know, especially as a 'business model' / in terms of economic relevance.

Thing is, at this present juncture, nobody (and I mean nobody, not even the big guns & captains of industry) have managed to recup in full the revenue losses from the music quickly becoming a virtual commodity.

It's really a pickle, and no one has yet figured it out, how to transform all that interest and fascination for music into $
Because the interest and the average music 'consumed' (in terms of artists listened to by the avreage user & amount of music as well) is evergrowing and as alive as it's ever been.

Now do labels have relevance artistically? sociologically? etc.
OF COURSE
Probably more so than ever, a label comes with an ethos and very personalized means of promotion, they build a fidelity amongst likeminded customers. And let's face it, they partake in an aspect of the process of commercializing music that most artists are not interested in, have no clue how to get into, etc etc etc. They also debunk and weed out the sheer load of material out there, and chose to release the works of those they deem worthy. (However arbitrary that process may be)

But then, how can an entity assume these essential and worthwhile responsibilities if it doesn't reap and earn enough to thrive?

That's where I suspect most tiny to medium sized labels are allowed to endured based on a labour of love and sacrifices and more through "sweat & grind" than strict business planning.

The challenge is to find ways to cash in somewhere along that process of commercializing and distributing music. And I wish I had the answer to that, do I ever wish.